Rogers Vision has you uncovered

Summary

So here's the scenario: I have an advanced cameraphone from Rogers, an SE K790a that takes 3.2 megapixel photos and has a large screen and Internet capabilities.  I want to be able to use it to send high quality (not just tiny, highly-compressed) photos from wherever I am, to document my travels, probably even with location information embedded in the photos using a GPS (geocoded photos).  Mostly I want to send photos to Flickr, which requires either uploading using their website, or sending them an email.  I might also Facebook a few photos.

This isn't just theory, here's a geotagged photo I sent directly from my phone in Estonia

This is somewhat similar to the scenario presented by Rogers in recent ads, in which people Facebook photos from their phones with wild abandon.

In short, I want to Tell The Whole Story As It Happens.

So I was excited to see Rogers offering a $7 unlimited plan...

Unfortunately, the $7 unlimited on-device mobile browsing and the $20 Communicate Value Pack are not provided as options available to me, either within my Rogers account or directly from my phone.

So I need to know, for my current remaining contract and K790a phone...

Rogers could have one of two clear answers:
A) Hooray, welcome to unlimited browsing
B) Sorry, we only support unlimited browsing on HSDPA phones, you're grandfathered with your existing navigate plan but no unlimited browsing for you

Ideally the second, HSDPA-only answer would also be accompanied by "however recognizing the investment you made just last year in a Rogers phone, plus the costs you have already incurred for data use, we will offer you an upgrade to a K850 phone for (free/very low cost) and you won't have to extend your contract."

UPDATE 2008-03-03: The more I read about it, the more I think that I may be better off with my existing $10/10MB plan, which covers traffic to any website, rather than the $7 plan which while it claims to be "unlimited" is reported to actually limit you to only the websites provided in its WAP portal.

UPDATE 2008-03-04: Response from Rogers

I asked Rogers support to read this blog posting and address the questions asked, I don't know if they actually did read this posting, but this is what they sent in response

In your recent email, you have informed us that there are issues when
trying to use a K790 phone with the Rogers Vision plan.

As stated previously this phone is not compatible with the Rogers Vision
Service therefore, yes there would be issues. You cannot access the
Rogers Vision service with this particular phone.

If you are interested in accessing Rogers vision then you would need to
have a phone that is compatible with this service.

So that's it for me, I'm giving up trying to get them to answer my actual questions.  As far as I can tell, high-speed, "unlimited" data, and Rogers Vision are all one entangled thing as far as Rogers is concerned.  I will never be getting a phone or a contract from them again.  ENDUPDATE

Details

There are a lot of inconsistencies in the messages and documents from Rogers, but as near as I can figure out:

Rogers VIsion (rogers.com/vision) is a branding for their high-speed cellphone data network, it uses High Speed Packet Access (HSPA).  (Sometimes they distinguish between the network, and Vision as a set of services on the network, sometimes they don't.)

High-Speed Packet Access (HSPA) is a collection of mobile telephony protocols that extend and improve the performance of existing UMTS protocols. Two standards, HSDPA and HSUPA, have been established and a further standard, HSOPA, is being proposed.

Wikipedia - High-Speed Packet Access

Rogers only supports the following phones for Vision service

• Sony Ericsson K850i - HSDPA
• Motorola V9 (Razr2) - HSDPA
• LG TU500 - HSDPA
• LG TU515 - HSDPA
• LG TU720 Shine - ?HSDPA?
• Samsung A736 - HSDPA

So it appears that the current Vision requirements are HSDPA (3G) and video calling capability.
Note that Rogers never uses the term HSDPA, they always use the generic term HSPA.
So far that is more or less clear.

Coverage is only in major metro areas.  For example for Ottawa, the current coverage is

from http://downloads.rogers.com/wireless/5007359_070919_Vert_Que.pdf

So now let's talk just about cellphone data (cellphone Internet).  Rogers has an existing EDGE (2G) network.  EDGE (as implemented by Rogers) is considerably slower than HSDPA.

Charges for using the data network are extremely high, at 5 cents per kilobyte (5¢/KB).  However Rogers did offer some data plans for consumers.

• $5 plan: originally 2MB included, later 5MB included, 3¢/KB for use over the included amount
• $10 plan: 10MB included, 3¢/KB for use over the included amount

The plans had various names, "navigate mobile Internet" was one of the recent ones.

(Note that these plans do not cover data use while roaming.)

Now here's where things get really confusing.  Rogers introduced a new data plan.  So if you now go to Rogers - Wireless Essentials - Mobile Internet Plans, it offers you just one plan

• $7 Unlimited On-Device Mobile Browsing Plan.  Includes "mobile browsing" (not clearly defined).  Does not include computer use ("tethering").  Does not include  "3rd party applications" (not clearly defined).    Anything that doesn't fall under "mobile browsing", including tethering and 3rd party applications, is charged a pay-per-use data rate of 5¢/KB.
• If you have no plan at all, all data use is at the 5¢/KB rate.

If you read the chart, it appears to be clear that this plan is available to both non-Vision devices and to Vision devices.

So here's my situation: I have a Sony Ericsson K790a.  I bought this phone from Rogers last year for a lot of money on a 3 year contract.  This was not a cheap phone, it was one of the most technologically advanced ones available from Rogers at the time.

February 12, 2007

Hardware / Equipment:
Qty 1 ˆ Pay Monthly
Renewal Term: 36 months
SON K790R $349.99*
Administration Fee $35.00*

Subtotal $384.99

Taxes:
GST / HST: $23.10
PST / QST: $30.80

TOTAL $438.89

While this may seem expensive, it's actually worse than that, because with data fees from when I didn't know how expensive data would be, plus data fees from when I was roaming oversees (which Rogers doesn't provide data plan coverage for), plus data fees from when I thought I was covered but apparently my data plan wasn't active, I have spent well over an additional $500 in data charges.

Rogers still sells the K790 (for about half the price).  Even though it is therefore quite a recent phone, it only does EDGE, not HSDPA.  And unlike the K800, it doesn't have a video camera in the front for video calling.  So by definition it is not a Vision phone.

I currently have the $10/10MB plan.  But 10MB goes pretty quickly, particularly when a single full-size photo upload is 1.5MB.  So I thought I would sign up for the $7 unlimited plan.

Now when you continue to read below the table on the unlimited mobile browsing plan, it says rather mysteriously

Plan is available on select phones only (PDAs such as Blackberry or Windows Mobile devices, PC cards and non-Rogers certified devices are not eligible).

Nowhere does it list these select phones, or define  exactly what is required to be a selected, Rogers-certified device.  More than that, "Rogers Vision" seems to mean different things in different contexts.  Sometimes it appears to refer to video calling only.  Other times it appears to be a branding for anything to do with the high-speed network.

There's a bit more information in HowardForums: HSDPA vs. VISION clarification, but there are still lots of unclear elements.

If you read the text in the PDF of the coverage map, it says

The Rogers high speed wireless network will enhance the experience customers have with their Rogers Vision phones and Services by providing better video clarity, quality, faster browsing and downloading speeds than the GSM/GPRS/EDGE standards. When travelling outside the Rogers Vision high speed network coverage area, customers will continue to have access to the Rogers Vision services with the exception of video calling.

So it appears they continue to support both the (currently very limited coverage) HSDPA network, and the existing EDGE network.

Ok, so I currently have

# $11 Every Call Value Pack
# $10 Mobile Internet plan

There should be two options available to me:
1) Replace the $10 plan with the $7 unlimited plan
2) Replace the two services I have for a total of $21 with a $20 Communicate Value Pack that includes the unlimited browsing, the call features, and a gazillion text and picture/video messages

Rogers could have one of two clear answers:
A) Hooray, welcome to unlimited browsing
B) Sorry, we only support unlimited browsing on HSDPA phones, you're grandfathered with your existing plan but no unlimited browsing for you

Ideally the second, HSDPA-only answer would also be accompanied by "however recognizing the investment you made just last year in a Rogers phone, plus the costs you have already incurred for data use, we will offer you an upgrade to a K850 phone for (free/very low cost) and you won't have to extend your contract."

* Also Rogers needs to much more clearly define what "unlimited on-device mobile browsing" includes.  If I upload to Flickr using their website, is that included?  If I use SMTP email to send messages and photos, is that included?  If I visit the New York Times page, is that included?  If I send anything to HTTP port 80, is that included?

Or is it only a specific set of web sites designated by Rogers?  Is it just some sort of WAP portal access, or does "unlimited" actually mean unlimited?

* Additionally, Rogers needs to clarify data costs for international roaming, both making it explicit that the data plans do not currently cover roaming, and providing a roaming data plan option

* As well Rogers should warn purchasers of EDGE phones that they won't be able to use any data plans, if that is indeed the case

* Also Rogers should indicate whether an unlocked HSDPA-capable phone would be supported, e.g. the Nokia N82.  Are only particular types of HSDPA supported?

* And last but not least, Rogers should be required by law or at least good conscience to automatically notify you when you exceed data use thresholds, and to automatically put you on the lowest cost data plan (e.g. as soon as you went over the tiny 100KB limit that will cost you $5, you should be automatically put on the $5/5MB plan, and so on up)

I don't think think it is unreasonable to want these answers considering that I've sunk $1000 into the phone and data costs, not including the rest of my monthly contract, and only got the phone a year ago.

Instead, Rogers email support has given me a long string of either incorrect or incomprehensible answers.

The latest one is

In your recent email, you have inquired about the $20 communicative
value package and our vision service phones.

The $20 communicate package includes the following:

Call Display
Voicemail
2500 Sending Text Message
5MB navigate
1000 MMS
Name Display
Who Called service.

Upon investigation of our Vision service, we see that the K790
Unfortunatly is not a vision phone. Phones that are compatible with the
vision service are:

Sony Ericsson K850i
LG TU500
Motorola V9 (Razr 2)
LG TU720 Shine
LG TU515
Samsung A736

We apologize for the inconvenience.

If you read their FAQ on the Communicate Value Plan, it says

The $20 Communicate Value Pack is an enhanced service bundle that includes:
# 2MB Mobile Internet usage

So... if you have a Vision device, the $20 plan includes unlimited, but if you don't it includes the 5MB & 3¢/KB plan that replaced the 2MB plan??

I give up.

Rogers, please read this message and answer my questions clearly.

Thank you.

Previously:
February 8, 2008  Rogers cellphone Internet: now even less comprehensible
October 12, 2007  will the iPhone lower Canadian cell data charges?
July 24, 2007  Geist on overpriced Canadian mobile data
June 26, 2007  outrageous cellphone data charges, the sequel: roaming
April 05, 2007  more on Canadian cellphone data charges [including Rogers Vision]
April 03, 2007  map and gps mashups in InfoWeek
February 23, 2007  Internet on a phone: be very afraid

Comments

[tom_k]

My guess is that "unlimited" data is only intended for phones that can't be "tethered", i.e. used as a modem for a separate computer. Since the k790a can be tethered, they don't want to offer it the use of "unlimited" data, which if you read the fine print, isn't really unlimited.

I'd love to know how you are doing the geotagging. I just bought an unlocked Rogers k790a, which I then de-branded to turn on all the apps that come with the k790a. It is an awesome phone, even 18 months later.I'm using it with AT&T here in the US.

--tom

[Richard Akerman]

I used j2memap to geocode photos on my K790.

http://j2memap.landspurg.net/

It requires an external GPS as the K790 has no available internal GPS capability.

At the time it only actually tagged the photos with the GPS location, I don't know if it properly EXIF-GPS codes them now.

Your theory is an interesting one, but they allow the K850 which is just a newer version of the K790, with HSDPA. The K850 can also be tethered.

[Tom Karches]

I thought you might be using the hge-100 GPS enabler from SE. Cool, but wired.

--tom

[Richard Akerman]

The K790 will indeed work with a Bluetooth GPS, I used it with a Holux GPSlim236 and j2memaps.

I am currently testing the HGE-100 but it requires a specific serial setup to use, I have only tried it with TrekBuddy and Tracker so far. I am working on a full review of it.

[Donovan Hill]

I just ordered a Nokia E91 (I wanted to replace my Palm Vx PDA with a new PDA that also has SIP capability and maybe use GSM as the backup for my email reception) and I decided to look through Rogers' website to find a data plan. I have to say that their site is as clear as mud on the subject. I think I'll be talking to a CSR on Monday (Mar 24) to see what is available and let them know that their site is very confusing.

[Alex G]

dude... give up, there's no mobile internet in Canada. If you are paying for anything related to data in Canada you are just okaying their ridiculous, over the top money grab.

My full time job revolves and is 100% based around internet. I've been doing it for over 9 years and i have never, NEVER, not even once used internet on my phone.

Finally, you should never, ever buy anything except service from provider. Every single phone and accessory is easily 100-200% over their market value. Very often you can buy the same phone cheaper somewhere else than it's offered by provider with a 3 year plan.

Bottom line, mobile industry in Canada is one giant scam. The only thing you can do as a consumer "to fight it" is to use as little of its services as you possibly can.

[Richard]

I had a 10MB per month for $10 plan on my K790a, and reached the 10 MB limit this month. I called in to see what they had for a new plan.

The CSR (customer service rep. - tech dept) put me on the new unlimited plan. I tested it out a bit, and the next day I had a message in my phone saying I owed $50. The unlimited plan is no good.

I called again to get the bill eliminated (they agreed to), and to revert back to my original 10MB plan. The CSR (billing dept) was not able to reinstate the 10 MB plan, so they gave me the closest match: 500MB / month, and a monthly credit of $15 to keep the charge at $10.

I am thrilled.